(AI generated from the transcript, edited for clarity)

Host: John Sipher, former CIA officer

Opening

John Sipher:
Something is changing in our country. Most people feel it before they can explain it.

My guest today is Shane Harris, a national security journalist at The Atlantic and former Washington Post reporter. Shane is known for deeply reported stories on intelligence, surveillance, and cyber conflict. At the Post, he was part of the team that won the 2022 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service. He’s also the author of The Watchers and At War.

Shane, welcome to the show.

Shane Harris:
Good to see you, John. Thanks for having me.

The Washington Post, Bezos, and the State of Modern Media

Sipher:
You spent several years at The Washington Post. What’s your take on what’s happening there now, and the state of foreign‑policy journalism more broadly?

Harris:
My big take is that it’s terribly sad. I spent seven years there. Many great reporters are now gone—some left, some lost their jobs in the layoffs.

The uncomfortable truth: the people in charge didn’t know how to run a newspaper. They alienated subscribers with baffling decisions—like cancelling a presidential endorsement 11 days before the election. Hundreds of thousands of subscribers left.

There was no plan to make money, even with great reporting. Other outlets have figured this out: The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and The Atlantic. It’s not unknowable.

And Jeff Bezos—he’s distracted. More interested in rockets and competing with Elon Musk than running a newspaper. Profit was never going to matter to him; the Post could never make enough to affect his wealth. So when did he shift from “benevolent owner” to “it needs to turn a profit”? We don’t know.

You can also see a subtle rightward shift in the editorial page and a gutting of the newsroom. And without a sports section, local section, or foreign desk—why are you calling yourself The Washington Post? How do you cover national security without a foreign staff? You don’t.

“They Killed My Source”: An Iranian Spy Story

Sipher:
Your recent Atlantic piece, They Killed My Source, was remarkable. What happened?

Harris:
It goes back to 2016. A cybersecurity source told me that someone on a dark‑web message board—frequented by hacker groups—claimed to be part of an Iranian collective with information on a U.S. stealth drone Iran had downed.

Usually these messages are nonsense. But I sent a quick note. He replied days later and began verifying my identity with oddly specific biographical details. He seemed professional.

He told me:

• He was an Iranian intelligence officer
• He worked in Iran’s cyber‑warfare unit
• His team had hacked the stealth drone
• He had inside information he wanted to leak
• He had also been a CIA asset, a productive one
• The CIA had cut him off
• He hoped leaking to me would make the CIA notice him again

We spoke for two months. My plan was to vet him — and eventually, I did. He was telling the truth.

What I didn’t know:
He had been arrested in Iran, suspected of leaking to dissidents, imprisoned… and later, killed while still in touch with me. One day he missed our regular encrypted meeting. Days later, I learned he’d been murdered.

The story is about piecing together what really happened — but also about the intimate, emotionally complicated bond between journalists and sources. Very similar, John, to the relationships you managed at CIA.

And yes, I felt guilt. Did I fail to protect him? Did my involvement make him vulnerable? Those questions stayed with me.

How Trump Changed the Intelligence Community

Sipher:
Let’s talk big-picture. You’ve covered national security for 15 years. What changed during the Trump era?

Harris:
In Trump’s first term, I wasn’t covering the intelligence community — I was covering a president at war with the intelligence community.

Trump saw intelligence agencies as political actors plotting against him. The agencies, meanwhile, were trying to resist political pressure, maintain objectivity, and just do their jobs.

This was extraordinary. After 9/11, I learned that intelligence agencies strive to be apolitical. They serve whoever is president. Trump didn’t believe that.

Layer onto that the fact that his campaign was under investigation for potential contacts with Russians — he called it the Russia hoax, but it was a real investigation. Journalists reporting on it became targets.

Under Biden, things normalized. The agencies made accurate calls — like predicting Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

But now, Trump’s second term has gone much further:

• Leaders of key agencies now believe in politicizing them.
• The FBI and DOJ are not independent.
• The DNI is pushing conspiracy theories that damage trust in elections.

We’re far past what I thought politicization could look like.

Impact on the Workforce

Sipher:
How is this affecting the workforce?

Harris:
Morale is plummeting.

• Veterans know this isn’t normal.
• People are leaving.
• Others are being fired for not “going along.”
• Young people entering now might think this is how it has always worked — which is alarming.

Our foreign allies see it too. A Five Eyes partner told me: after Biden’s 2020 victory, they thought Trump was the aberration. But after Trump was re‑elected in 2024, they realized Biden was the aberration.

Allies now assume U.S. politics will swing wildly between norm‑breaking and normalcy. They are preparing for a world where they cannot rely on us.

Reporting in a Hostile Landscape

Sipher:
Is it easier or harder now to report on national security?

Harris:
Both.

Easier:
More disgruntled, frightened insiders reach out. They want someone to know what’s happening.

Harder:
Leadership sees journalists as the enemy. The traditional dialogue — off‑record briefings, background conversations — is nearly gone.

And sources fear retaliation. Even sharing unclassified insights can be risky.

Government Surveillance and Risks to Journalists

Sipher:
Are you more worried now about surveillance?

Harris:
Yes — but not only because of the technology.

The bigger problem: the norms are gone.

In the past, subpoenaing a journalist’s phone records was a last resort. Now:

• The FBI recently served a search warrant at a Washington Post reporter’s home
• They seized her electronic devices
• That would have been unthinkable in past administrations — Republican or Democratic

This isn’t “protecting secrets.” This is treating journalism as criminal.

Foreign Policy Whiplash: Iran, Greenland, Venezuela

Sipher:
What are you tracking right now?

Harris:
Right now, the big question: Will the president order a strike on Iran? He may have by the time listeners hear this.

It’s remarkable how much time Trump is spending on foreign affairs, given he ran on avoiding foreign entanglements and given the economy is deteriorating — the very thing he was elected to fix.

Another major trend: the dismantling of the post‑WWII U.S.-led liberal order. Institutions that kept the West safe and prosperous for 80 years are being intentionally taken apart by our own government.

The Greenland episode is a perfect example. For a week, allies genuinely feared the U.S. might declare Greenland American territory. The Danish prime minister said openly: if the U.S. forcibly did this, that would be the end of NATO.

Our allies are traumatized by the whiplash. Trust is eroding.

America’s Failure to Explain Its Role in the World

Sipher:
One problem is that previous presidents didn’t explain to Americans why alliances matter.

Harris:
Totally agree. The case is clear: our alliances keep us safe and prosperous. But U.S. elections aren’t won on foreign policy. For decades there was a presumption that “this is just how things work.”

Biden tried to argue that foreign policy is domestic policy, but the message was underdeveloped, and he didn’t have the skill to sell it.

And now, even support for preventing Russia from overtaking European democracies is no longer a bipartisan assumption. That’s stunning if you grew up in the Reagan era.

Our allies now plan for a future where they can’t depend on us. And they’d be crazy not to.

What Shane is Working On Now

Harris:
Broadly, I’m focused on:

• The dismantling of the global order
• How intelligence agencies are trying to understand China
• How AI, big data, and persistent surveillance are changing espionage
• How you recruit human assets in a world where everyone is always being watched

Intelligence work reveals the fault lines beneath the world. That’s why I cover it.

You can find my reporting at The Atlantic and follow me on Twitter/X at @ShaneHarris.

Closing

Sipher:
Your reporting is excellent — deeply sourced, deeply informed. Thanks for joining us.

Harris:
Always great to talk, John.

Sipher:
This has been The Steady State Sentinel, a product of The Steady State, a group of former national security professionals defending American democracy. Subscribe, leave a rating, and join us next week.