Lauren Anderson (00:01.398)
Welcome to the Steady State Sentinel. I’m Lauren Anderson, and I’ve spent more than four decades working in the fields of national security, intelligence, and geopolitics, including nearly 30 years with the FBI. I’m joined today by my Steady State colleague Peter Mina. Peter is the founder of the MENA Firm, a civil rights and federal employment law firm in Washington, D.C. And prior to that, Peter was the Deputy Officer for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties.
At the Department of Homeland Security. Over the past decade, it has become increasingly clear that immigration enforcement, an essential component of our national security, has changed, raising profound questions about due process, accountability, and the treatment of people living in the United States. As we explored in an earlier episode of the podcast, the rules governing immigration enforcement have changed.
Often without the transparency, accountability, and legal safeguards present in healthy democracies, further eroding trust in our institutions. At the same time, we’re seeing the rights of both citizens and non-citizens disregarded. People have been taken off the streets of our nation and detained with little or no communication with their loved ones.
I’ve been a witness to actions like this in other countries, and they are indications of growing authoritarianism. But rather than hear from us, we wanted you to hear directly from people who have lived through these experiences. Today you’ll hear one of those stories. Donna Hughes Brown was born in England to Irish parents and came to the United States as an 11-year-old child, building her life here as a lawful permanent resident. Earlier in her career,
Donna trained as a large animal veterinary technician, then began studies in occupational therapy, which, in her hope, was to allow her to combine her passion for care for both animals and people in healing. Today, Donna operates her own home health care practice in rural Missouri, specializing in hospice, respite, and private home care. She focuses on providing compassionate and affordable care.
Lauren Anderson (02:23.18)
Tailored to the needs of each individual or family. Jim Brown was born in Southeast Texas and at the age of nine moved with his family to Kearney, Nebraska, where they lived on a working ranch. For Jim, growing up in poverty in a home impacted by alcoholism instilled in him a lifelong commitment to serving others, particularly those facing hardships. He enlisted in the US Navy at age 18, serving as a corpsman.
Providing medical care for 20 years. He saw combat in Operation Desert Storm, serving with the 1st Battalion, 5th Marines. Today, Jim continues to serve others as a radiology and CT tech in a hospital. In 2015, Jim met Donna Hughes, whose lifelong commitment to caring for others mirrored his own. Together, they have built a life centered on service, community, and helping those around them.
In July 2025, just last year, Jim and Donna were returning from a trip to Ireland through Chicago O’Hare’s International Airport when Donna was detained by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Jim was told to continue on his connecting flight to St. Louis and that Donna would be on the next flight. She wasn’t. She would spend the next 143 days in immigration detention.
Donna and Jim, we are so honored that you’ve agreed to join us today. So thank you so much for being here. And Donna, I’d like to start with you first, if I may. Take us back to that day and recognizing it was probably one of the most horrible days of your life, and talk about what happened. When did you understand why you were being detained? What were you told was going to happen? And then when did you realize that things were not going to unfold how you thought they might have?
Donna Hughes-Brown (04:19.572)
So July twenty ninth, we were actually initially in the Dublin airport and went through what’s called pre-custom, US pre-custom. There are six countries in the US that allow US customs to be present in their countries. And when you clear pre custom, you are then as long as the flight is direct, it’s considered a domestic flight, and therefore you would not have to go through customs again. when you
Lauren Anderson (04:27.557)
Mm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (04:45.396)
actually on US soil. So went through pre custom pre-custom and I was detained initially for about an hour and a half because they were looking for some paperwork. Some magical paperwork had they couldn’t tell me what exactly it was they needed, couldn’t tell me why, couldn’t tell me anything, wanted to know if I had this magical paperwork. I did not, whatever it was. About an hour and a half later they cleared us to get on the plane and flew from Dublin to
Lauren Anderson (04:56.322)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (05:15.49)
Chicago. As we were getting ready to land in Chicago, an announcement was made that everybody had to have their passports out. Now I’ve flown extensively throughout throughout the countries, other countries coming in and out, never had to show this, thought kind of odd, but really didn’t think too much about it, got my passport out. And as we’re disembarking, there are two CVP officers that are that are standing there at the doorway to the plane there on the jetty way.
I go through, I held them my you know my passport, and they said, you’re who I’m looking for, who we’re looking for. I thought, okay. I said, I just went through customs, you know, etc. And they said, Well, we need you to sign some more paperwork. So they pull me off to the side of the jetty way while everybody else was still deplaining. and my husband was behind me by probably 10 or 12 people. So he hadn’t seen the initial conversation with them. of course, everybody’s looking at us as we’re getting, you know, looking at me and the CVP officers as
As they’re going by, I’m sure wondering what’s going on, as was I. They told me that they needed me to sign some additional paperwork. Again, still not even knowing what this paperwork is, I was like, okay, you know, whatever. I’m sure they know what they’re talking about, whatever it is, this magical paperwork. my husband gets off the plane.
Peter Mina (06:35.573)
Hey, Donna, before you go on, I just wanted to explain one thing for folks, or if you could explain. so first of all, thank you for for being here first. But I think just to explain, you mentioned CBP. So for folks that might not know, that’s customs and border protection. And so you’re coming into Chicago O’Hare, and as you’re going through this process, had you ever really, I mean, other than sort of just getting your passport stamped, ever really had an interaction with a
You know, C V P officer before. Okay. Okay.
Donna Hughes-Brown (07:06.352)
Not really, no. Just the nor your normal you know, going in and out.
Peter Mina (07:11.243)
Got it. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt, but I just kinda wanted to give that context for our listeners.
Donna Hughes-Brown (07:15.39)
Well, up until two years ago, C B P was on the border.
Peter Mina (07:20.661)
Well, so there are two yes, you’re right. So there are two different parts, Jim. So you’ve got the Border Patrol, which you’re right, is absolutely on the border. But then you also have what’s called the Office of Federal Operations, and those are your four those are your folks at all the different ports of entry, including airports. So like at Chicago.
Lauren Anderson (07:38.816)
Right. And even in in Ireland and England, like you’re talking about, Donna, when you were explaining earlier, those are officers forward deployed from the US into those spaces. So please pardon that interruption and please go on with your story.
Peter Mina (07:41.301)
Exactly.
Donna Hughes-Brown (07:53.353)
So Jim had had deplane at that point and said, you know, what’s going on? And they explained to him that I needed to sign some more paperwork. and so he asked, Well, you know, do I, you know, reschedule my our our connecting flight? What do we do? You know, do I go with her? What what what’s going on? And they said, No, you continue on, we will put her on the next available flight.
That being said, they said to me then, we’ve got to take you over to our offices, which is on the complete opposite side of O’Hare, and O’Hare is huge. they said, We’ve got a a van downstairs, and we’ll just go on the flight line. It’s the fastest way to get over there. And I again didn’t think much of it. They said, however, because you’re going on the flight line, we do have to put you in handcuffs. And I thought that was a little odd.
Peter Mina (08:31.885)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Anderson (08:50.28)
Wow. Wow. Yeah.
Peter Mina (08:50.989)
Hmm. Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (08:51.336)
That was my first inkling of perhaps something is awry. Okay. and so they put me in handcuffs. Again, people are still depleting, still looking. I mean, you know, to look at me and to hear me. I I mean, I don’t know what a quote unquote person of interest would look like, but maybe it’s me, I don’t know. For whatever reason. Again, still I’m going on the whatever this magical paperwork is. Rabbit hole.
Peter Mina (08:55.755)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Anderson (08:56.747)
Yep.
Peter Mina (09:10.272)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (09:19.438)
and so they put me in handcuffs and Jim believes them, so he, you know, goes on with his connecting flight to St. Louis. I get to the office, the C VP office, on the other side of O’Hare, and I’m put in a waiting room. And there were at any one time there were probably five or six other folks being questioned or or what have you in that waiting room. They would get, you know, they’d come
Up to somebody, pull them into the offices, let them back out, vice versa. There was a young family that lived in Ohio had just flown in from Luftanza and they had separated the man, it was a single father and two girls, two two young well a young teenager and like an 11-year-old, and had separated him from them, from his girls. and so they were dealing with a
that so it was about three hours before I actually even got to go into the office where I was told that they needed paperwork from a court case that I had had in twenty twelve. And I don’t have that paperwork. I apparently I’m supposed to have kept it
I did not know this. Regardless, end result the same. I didn’t have the paperwork. They didn’t have the paperwork. They said they were going to have to contact the courts and get this paperwork. So they put me in their cell, their holding cell, and the next morning they got the paperwork from the courts in Wright County, Missouri.
They then said that whatever it was that was contained in this paperwork required me to go before a judge. And I said, But I’ve already been before a judge. My case was adjudicated. everything was taken care of long before I even went to court, so on and so forth. The the case itself was about a
Donna Hughes-Brown (11:28.05)
negotiating a worthless instrument. So basically a bad check for about $25 to a grocery store that was not an intentional, but regardless, the end re end result was still the same. A bad check ended up getting passed. Okay. I I got my adjudication, I did a year’s probation, and that was that was the end of it. And again in twenty twelve. So at this point it was thirteen years prior to being questioned by C VP.
Peter Mina (11:30.913)
Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (11:57.927)
So they said, okay, you’ve got to go in front of a judge. And I thought, great, you know, in the next however, you know, day or so, or you know, you should probably take them a day. that was not the case. they had given me a paperwork stating that my first court date would have been in August 13th. Now, this was the 29th of July.
twenty well actually that day point it was the thirtieth ’cause it was the next day. And so I would have to wait two weeks, in essence, before I could even go before a judge. I said, So what do I you know, what’s gonna happen? Well we’re gonna hold you until until that time. But they still couldn’t tell me why I was being held. Like there was no information on why
Peter Mina (12:24.491)
Wow.
Lauren Anderson (12:24.63)
Well
Lauren Anderson (12:41.911)
Well
Donna Hughes-Brown (12:43.998)
Was being held, just that I needed to see a judge about a court case that I’d been before a judge for. So again, it still wasn’t making a lot of sense to me. And in this time, Jim did not know where I was. I was not allowed to call him, I was not allowed to give him any information whatsoever as to where I was or how long I was going to be there. And I obviously was not on the next plane home. Okay. And so
Peter Mina (12:53.058)
Right.
Peter Mina (13:07.179)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Anderson (13:07.873)
Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (13:10.9)
one day turned into three days. They kept me at C B P for three days there at the airport and then they transferred me to Broadview, which is the ICE temporary holding facility there just outside of Chicago. I was there I’m I was put in a holding cell with six other women. There were two from China, there were two from
Latino countries. there was a lady from Poland who was also a green card holder, as am I. And there was a lady from Ukraine who was in there on an HPV, a humanitarian parole visa. So three of us were legal here in the United States, and four of us were not. during those three days, they told us that.
Because Illinois does not allow detainees to be held for any great length of time, that we would be transferred to another facility. And they told us it would be either in Wisconsin, Indiana, or Kentucky. And so on the 4th of August, myself, the person from the Ukraine and the person from Poland got transferred to Kentucky.
Lauren Anderson (14:32.364)
Wow. And no, no, I was just gonna if you had a procedural question, jump in, but I was gonna ask Jim what was going through his mind at this point.
Peter Mina (14:32.513)
Donna, before you I’m sorry, Lloyd, I was just gonna a
Peter Mina (14:41.739)
why don’t you do that? And then actually I had kind of a similar question for Donna actually.
Lauren Anderson (14:46.132)
Okay. So so Jim, at this point, Donna has not come home. So what’s going through your mind? what were you thinking? What did you do?
Donna Hughes-Brown (14:57.256)
Well, for the first four or five days I didn’t know what to do. I knew she was being detained but I didn’t know exactly where she was. Nobody would tell you anything. And then it t until she called me from Kentucky, I didn’t know where she was for a week. So and then after that happened, I went to work.
Lauren Anderson (15:19.02)
Well.
Peter Mina (15:27.275)
Okay.
Donna Hughes-Brown (15:27.584)
fighting the system because I I did a lot of research and I actually studied what was going on and there’s so many people that are unfairly detained and
So I went to fight. So one of the first things I did was I s I went and got a number of every congressman and representative and I started calling. I called two hundred of in the first couple of weeks and got the same canned response, we don’t do legal stuff.
Lauren Anderson (16:00.759)
Well
Donna Hughes-Brown (16:08.402)
they they wouldn’t help. They absolutely wouldn’t help. And then I got a letter from the representative from Rhode Island, Seth magazine. And
Well, and then it fell on dead deaf ears and for like three weeks I got this letter saying that he was interested in our case because I had made it I started calling news agencies and all that stuff and made it and Donna has family worldwide. So that helped us. We actually ended up in a hundred and twenty countries, our story did.
Peter Mina (16:38.413)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Mina (16:51.403)
Wow.
Lauren Anderson (16:51.617)
Wow.
Donna Hughes-Brown (16:52.34)
And but Seth magazine or
had r wrote a letter saying there was on our GoFundMe page, I gotta go fund me to pay for the legal fees and stuff. I actually didn’t do it. The friend of ours did it for us. And so I kept calling magazine orice and they were doing nothing. They were he was part of the DHS committee and everything else. So I finally called them one day and told them all to resign and turn their badges in ’cause they weren’t doing their effing job.
Peter Mina (17:26.997)
Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (17:27.698)
Well, that Saturday following that conversation that we had that I was not very nice to I got a phone call and said, Can you be in D C on Wednesday? So I ended up flying to D C and going in front of Christy Noam and stuff then. But it took that type of response and that’s where we’re at now is we want to
Peter Mina (17:35.421)
Yeah.
Peter Mina (17:38.709)
Mm.
Lauren Anderson (17:39.234)
Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (17:52.691)
get to where we’re actually talking to people that can make differences. Legislation and actually changing laws. The immigration laws are wrong.
Peter Mina (17:57.25)
Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (18:05.032)
They’re just wrong. They the way they have a double standard with with American citizens and and immigrants is completely wrong. It’s there’s a there’s no double jeopardy with the with the
American citizen and a a immigrant can have done something twenty five years ago that they already went to court for and solved and they can get retried for it and that’s wrong. They that should not be there. Not at all.
And that’s what we’re fighting for now is we’re actually fighting for we actually are in close contact with several detainees right now and helping them with their commissary and those kind of things. And with a couple organizations that were trying to get legislation. Before I die I’m gonna have some legislation changed for immigration. I shouldn’t take that long. What’s that?
Peter Mina (19:04.321)
Hmm. Thank you for so much for your ad I was just saying thank you so much for your advocacy. I actually had a a couple of questions and then actually just a clarifying point from my own experience. the clarifying point really quickly is I know you were told that, you know, you know, congressmen don’t or congresspeople don’t typically get involved. that’s not been my experience. I mean it gr it certainly varies from administration to administration, but members of Congress often
Will write to ICE or to CVP asking about particular immigration cases. Now the response certainly varies from administration to administration. But you know, just to kind of give people some context, if you are faced with a situation, certainly not unprecedented. And then I w was hoping you could s explain a little bit more about like the meeting with DHS.
Because you just mentioned the secretary and most people do not get an audience with the secretary as it relates to their individual case. Can you explain a little bit of how that happened?
Lauren Anderson (20:06.346)
And I I yeah, and I just want to jump in real quickly. That’s a great point, Peter. But the other thing I think that is important is while the members of Congress may be going to DHS, that may be invisible to you as an American citizen. So it doesn’t take away from anything you’ve said, Jim. In fact it’s just it could be something going on behind the scenes. But sorry to jump in there. Go ahead with Peter’s question.
Peter Mina (20:18.259)
Exactly. That’s right. That’s right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (20:30.334)
Well, we’re involved in several congressmen and representatives now that are doing lots of stuff behind the scenes. And my my big deal is is I wanna get a team of
Peter Mina (20:40.385)
Got it.
Donna Hughes-Brown (20:46.83)
ag advocacy representatives that are there in D C saying, hey, this is wrong. We need to do something about how this is being approached. Like that point paper that you guys wrote, there’s so many things in there, like the statute of limitations and you know
We also through AFU are trying to do the Dignity Act, we’re working with the Dignity have you heard of the Dignity Act?
Peter Mina (21:18.477)
Why don’t you explain a little bit about what that is for the listeners?
Lauren Anderson (21:18.602)
No. Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (21:19.976)
The dignity act.
is actually for migrant workers and people that haven’t had crimes and they can sign this deal where they’re actually absolved from any deportation proceedings if they haven’t had any criminal records. And that’s really who Don and I are advocating for. We’re not advocating for somebody that’s got, you know, criminal records. We’re advocating for felony yeah, felony, you know, major crimes, et cetera. We’re you know, we’re definitely
Lauren Anderson (21:34.306)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (21:51.663)
feel that that should be adjug adjudicated accordingly and should definitely if deportation is required then it’s it’s required. I get you know we understand that. But for folks that get caught kinda in that middle gray area, things like me, people like me, or folks that children that did not have a choice but were brought here by their parents. And until they turn eighteen, they don’t have a choice. and so that it it’s folks like that. It’s people that are
Lauren Anderson (22:12.503)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (22:21.648)
that come here legally even, but now are having that legal representation, that documentation that they that they assumed would be okay, having that overturned and and they’re being rounded up. I mean it’s it’s just crazy what’s going on. And Jim actually went before Congress twice. The first time was not in front of Christinome the second time was. So you know, that whole getting Congress involved, getting
Peter Mina (22:40.673)
Wow. Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (22:51.572)
the visibility out there is huge for everybody. And so we you know, we thank you for also endeavoring, you know, to to keep that in the forefront of people’s minds. My goal is to get a hundred stories of detainees that are not criminals.
Peter Mina (23:01.749)
And Donna, I guess sorry, Jen.
Donna Hughes-Brown (23:09.458)
That’s the ones that I’m focusing on. If you’re if you’re a criminal and I can’t if I can’t win your case in American court and if you’re an American citizen, then I’m not gonna try to win your case in immigration court. So if if it’s a viable case where like Beata and the several different detainees that have
Lauren Anderson (23:13.173)
Right.
Peter Mina (23:23.063)
Sure. Yep.
Lauren Anderson (23:23.796)
Right, right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (23:35.315)
little or very or no crime at all. That’s the people we want to push, but I wanna get those names in front of people that change can change their life.
And that’s the deal is because we can talk all day and we can have meetings and we can hug each other and we can say, I feel bad for that but if we’re actually not doing something actively to stop what’s going on, then we’re not worth our salt as far as I’m concerned.
Lauren Anderson (24:08.802)
So before this happened, how did you both view and and Jim, you were an employee of the United States government, how did you view the government and the administration before and how did you view it after what happened with for you and Donna?
Donna Hughes-Brown (24:23.176)
Well, I’ll go with eighty-one percent of the evangelical church, Christian church votes Republican. They still do. Okay. And man, what a transformation that I’ve learned.
about Christianity in the first place and then w about the the government. I all thought they were crooked. I thought I’ve been told my entire life if a you know a politician’s lying if he opens his mouth.
Period. So I’ve always thought that, but I didn’t realize how nefarious and crooked they are. And I will call it out. I don’t care who hears it, it’s all nonsense. If if you think what they’re doing is right, then you need to look at your Christianity because Jesus spoke Aramaic and was brown. He so so they say you have to speak English to be
Peter Mina (25:04.78)
Yep.
Donna Hughes-Brown (25:33.711)
be in America well Jesus didn’t speak it and they I saw a meme yesterday about about if somebody believes that deportation is wrong we should deport them too.
Peter Mina (25:52.471)
Mm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (25:52.551)
So I asked them, so so so should we deport Jesus? Because Jesus believed that immigration was something that was healthy and that was good. So we should deport him as well. So that’s that’s where we’re going with this. Now wait a minute, there is a right and wrong.
Peter Mina (26:03.137)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Mina (26:07.969)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (26:10.48)
And let’s define what is right and wrong. And let’s fight for justice, equality, all those things that really matter. And that’s where the church has gone wrong as they have said, well, if you fit in this certain box, then then you’re good. But if you don’t, then we’re not gonna help you.
You know, and that’s but that’s what they’ve sold because of money and donors and so on and so forth. They’ve sold that rhetoric because they go on talking points like abortion and they t go on talking points about you know
gays and trans and all these things. And those are just talking points to get the conservative Christian movement to vote for them. It has nothing to do with what they actually believe. If that makes sense
Peter Mina (27:09.931)
I wanted to spend a minute or two for both of you, just talking about like the human and personal impact of what you both went through. I mean, that’s no small thing. And Donna, I know you were describing what was, you know, your sort of your first hours and days in O at O’Hare, and you know, having a father separated from his two girls, and then, you know, not having any sense of what was gonna happen next and how long you were gonna be there. How did that affect you just as a
Human being.
Donna Hughes-Brown (27:41.353)
So F I’ve always been a person that I don’t just take things as as what they are. I always question. I always try and figure things out. And so as I was questioning, initially questioning the C VP officers, initially questioning the ICE officers at Broadview and then
Peter Mina (27:49.889)
Uh-huh.
Donna Hughes-Brown (28:07.678)
questioning the corrections officers when we were when we were taken down to Campbell County Detention Center in Newport, Kentucky and not getting any answers and just kind of
It wasn’t making sense. And so I’m looking at, okay, so I’ve got this court date on the thirteenth, at least I’ll be able to get some answers then. So on and so forth. The thirteenth comes and goes and I have no court. And so I was like, this is a little disconcerting at this point. And I’m still trying to figure out why I’m even there. So I have this paperwork now from ICE, from DHS, stating that I am being detained because of moral turpitude.
Peter Mina (28:41.911)
Sure.
Peter Mina (28:52.609)
Uh-huh.
Donna Hughes-Brown (28:53.338)
I don’t know what moral turpitude is. So I’m having to look it up, okay? And try and figure out what that means. And so, correct me if I’m wrong, Peter, you’ve got a little bit more perhaps info on on it. But in layman’s terms, basically it is the intent to defraud somebody of something at some point.
Peter Mina (28:55.467)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Mina (29:00.875)
Right.
Peter Mina (29:05.153)
No, you’re ki you’re going, you’re good. Mm-hmm.
Lauren Anderson (29:07.82)
Good.
Donna Hughes-Brown (29:18.672)
And doesn’t really have a lot of actual guidelines to it as far as the immigration definition of moral turpitude is. Except that it does say that it is for felony crimes. Okay? Mine was not a felony, it was a misdemeanor. mine in effect would have been the same as getting a speeding ticket. you know, that’s the kind of
attribution I have to is the closest thing that I can assimilate that somebody else might know of because not everybody apparently gets trarged with moral turpitude. Who knew? Anyway, so as I started to find out more about what this charge was and as I did not get a court date, I was kind of in limbo. I’m like I this doesn’t make sense. It it just does not make sense. None of this makes sense. we realized after being at CC
Peter Mina (29:49.115)
Mm. Sure.
Peter Mina (29:56.961)
Sure, right. Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (30:16.82)
DC just for even for a few days that things were different than what we thought they might be. Okay, because even what we were told was not the truth. again, my my whole
Peter Mina (30:29.015)
Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (30:35.944)
thought process was I’ll go before a judge, he’ll go, this is ridiculous. And you know, out out I’d be back back fine. Everything would be great. And that was not the case. The first judge that I went before was actually on the fifteenth of August. And it was to
Peter Mina (30:45.792)
huh.
Peter Mina (30:51.629)
Okay.
Donna Hughes-Brown (30:55.608)
hear why I was there. And so what the DHS officer had told this judge was that it was to see if I could be bonded out. And what the DHS attorney told the judge was that he did not have jurisdiction, this immigration judge that he did not have jurisdiction to hear my case because I was now considered an arriving alien. I was no longer an LPR.
Peter Mina (31:05.133)
Okay.
huh.
Peter Mina (31:20.31)
Wow.
Donna Hughes-Brown (31:21.35)
Which is actually not the case. The only to my knowledge, the the only presiding decision maker would be the Attorney General in the Supreme Court. Okay, that’s that’s my understanding of how that goes. I may be a little wrong, but that it certainly was not up to ICE and DHS to decide whether I was now an arriving alien or not. And so the judge, who didn’t know whether this
Peter Mina (31:23.789)
Sure.
Donna Hughes-Brown (31:51.237)
Is right or wrong, okay, believed the DHS attorney, and therefore would not make a ruling on whether I could be bonded out, refused to make a ruling on whether he had the authorization to bond me out or not. Okay. So that meant putting my case through, like again to be heard, okay, and and staying in detainment.
Peter Mina (31:59.682)
Wow.
Peter Mina (32:04.932)
Donna, before you
Peter Mina (32:13.997)
Sure. I was just gonna ask you, when did you have a sense because then you talked about, you know, crimes of moral turpitude, but when did you understand what the consequence of that might be? Like th there was a possibility, for example, that you could be deported, that you could lose your status.
Donna Hughes-Brown (32:32.06)
I got the like I got the paperwork from from the ICE representative at at Broadview and it said that
Peter Mina (32:36.705)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Mina (32:46.05)
Okay.
Donna Hughes-Brown (32:49.04)
has to go before, you know, so and so at such and such a time for deportation he proceedings. And I thought that is the most bizarre thing in the world. Okay, especially, you know, at that time going, th I’m I’m I’m thinking it’s a mistake, it’s just whatever, you know, just go through the motions, do what I have to do, and they’ll come you know, I’ll go before the judge and child will be like, Yeah, it’s been real, see you later you know
Lauren Anderson (33:07.552)
Mm.
Peter Mina (33:14.775)
Yep. Yep. Yeah, I Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (33:16.678)
Yeah, sorry, whoops. but that really was not the case. And so when I went through to the first j the first hearing with the judge and he believed that DHS was correct and that he could not rule on a bond hearing. and then I was like, Okay, so when’s my next like what do we have to do? And then speaking with my lawyer and figuring out what we needed to do at that point, but in the meantime experiencing all of the
Peter Mina (33:38.21)
Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (33:46.585)
Awful things that were happening to other detainees to myself while we were at CCDC made me even more determined and more it was more important to start speaking out. So about the conditions and and what was going on? Yeah. So at CCDC
Peter Mina (33:48.458)
huh.
Lauren Anderson (34:02.956)
Can you talk a little bit about that, Donna? A few of the things? Yes, and detention. Yep.
Peter Mina (34:09.004)
Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (34:14.976)
They’re they put shut him up. Shut your mouth. They put him they put us in what’s called pods. And so the pod, because C C D C is a detention center, a jail, they have they have inmates who are Go downstairs. The the detainees are housed with, so it’s integrated. Okay. And so
You’ve got it’s probably a third of detainees versus two thirds of inmates. And when we when we first got there, when the three of us first got there,
Peter Mina (34:49.12)
Okay.
Donna Hughes-Brown (34:57.224)
the they put us in a holding cell. it was a a six and a half hour ride. We had not had anything to eat until from breakfast that morning at like six in the morning. We didn’t get to Kentucky until 7 30 that night. Had nothing to eat, nothing to drink. and then were held for four hours before we were completed completely booked in and then put in a holding cell. And this holding cell had feces and urine all over the walls. It had bugs crawling out of the the drains.
they gave us these mattresses, mats, if you will, that I think are supposed to be three inches
Tall. If they were an inch, that would have been on a fluffy day. they and but they had pulled them out of other cells. They hadn’t even like cleaned them. They had just pulled them out of people that they had just released, you know, local yokels or whatever that they had just released and grabbed those mattresses and then brought them into us. So we didn’t know, like these things hadn’t been cleaned. the urinal sink lovely stainless steel sink combination was filthy. and so
Peter Mina (35:46.421)
Mm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (36:05.942)
So we were held there also for like two more hours there and then two of us got taken up upstairs to the pod. When you get to the pod, there’s dead bed bugs on the wall, there’s again feces, there’s it’s just really, really gross, really gross. there’s blood up above the door, all the vents have got black mold around them, and that’s including the intake vents, the air intake vents have got mold all black mold all around them. I’m in healthcare.
Peter Mina (36:27.725)
Yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (36:35.922)
I’m very familiar with what black mole looks like. And I’m very familiar with what bed bugs look like. I’m very familiar with all of the things that should not be. Okay? And CCDC hit almost checked every box with in some way, shape, or form. we had showers and sinks and toilets that weren’t working for days or weeks at a time. We had we were given food that the on the it’s a 50-pound 50 pound.
Peter Mina (36:37.75)
Sure.
Peter Mina (36:47.639)
Uh-huh.
Lauren Anderson (36:53.58)
Well.
Donna Hughes-Brown (37:05.792)
pound box of it says meat byproduct and on it it says not for human consumption and that’s what they were feeding us and they weren’t even cooking it like they it would it would show up in their stew and it would be raw. It was awful.
Peter Mina (37:11.637)
Mm.
Lauren Anderson (37:17.216)
Wow.
Donna Hughes-Brown (37:24.18)
a lot of medical issues were happening with us as detainees. We had a slightly different set of rules and expectations that that the that ICE required the jail to do. And the jail
Peter Mina (37:39.148)
Okay.
Donna Hughes-Brown (37:43.123)
wasn’t doing some of those. you were supposed to be able to see a ICE representative weekly to make sure that you’re being treated as a detainee, you know, humanely, yada yada yada. and that wasn’t happening. The guy would show up whenever the heck he felt like it, you’d explain that there was a problem, and he’d say he’d look into it and that’s as far as it ever went. We had these detainee reporting forms, DRFs.
Peter Mina (37:57.196)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (38:13.186)
And they’re in English and in Spanish. Those were the two options. If you spoke any other language, you were out of luck.
Peter Mina (38:18.925)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (38:19.336)
you you couldn’t get one that was in your language. supposedly to go to your your reporting officer, your detainee reporting officer, who was a mystery. I it took me two months to to get the name of who my reporting officer was. And I was putting in these DRFs like three or four a week and was getting none of them back with a response. None of them. and when I did get
a response it was about well you know we’ll look into that. Okay. Nothing ever happened. my husband had to we were having so I was having some medical issues and the
Lauren Anderson (38:54.167)
Well
Donna Hughes-Brown (39:03.45)
nurse practitioner that was the provider for the jail was not using standard operating procedures in handling some of the medical conditions that were going going on and so he reported the the nurse practitioner to the Kentucky Board of Nursing nothing happened he contacted the department of corrections nothing happened he contacted the warden of
Peter Mina (39:25.997)
Okay.
Lauren Anderson (39:27.158)
Well.
Donna Hughes-Brown (39:33.297)
the jail. Nothing happened other than the warden refused to take his calls and would hang up on him after a while.
He contacted the governor of Kentucky. We contacted the He Kentucky Health Department. We contacted the County Health Department. We contact he contacted everybody to explain what these conditions were. We had no toilet paper for days. We had no feminine hygiene products for the women that were, you know, that that were that needed it in the pod. it was just I mean, it was just awful. I was taking I didn’t get my medication for six weeks, for the first six weeks I was there. When they finally started
Peter Mina (39:49.269)
Mm.
Peter Mina (40:09.262)
Wow. Mm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (40:09.882)
have it, then I was taking one of my pills and it dropped on the floor and the correction officer Boyer told me five second rule.
Lauren Anderson (40:10.346)
my god.
Donna Hughes-Brown (40:20.69)
I was like, what? I said, why and she goes, five second rule, pick it up and take it. I’m like, I’m not eating this. And she goes, I’ll put you in isolation. I’d already been in isolation twice, okay? Because I was advocating. They were retaliating against me for advocating for the other girls and myself and and the whole situation. And in fact I had actually called, I did a phone interview from the pod.
Peter Mina (40:20.827)
my gosh.
Lauren Anderson (40:22.816)
God.
Peter Mina (40:24.534)
Mm.
Peter Mina (40:28.354)
Uh-huh.
Peter Mina (40:32.92)
For what?
Yep. Mm-hmm.
Lauren Anderson (40:39.595)
Wow.
Donna Hughes-Brown (40:49.522)
with one of the local Cincinnati news outlets, television news outlets. And I did it right from the jail. And you know, guess w guess who ended up in isolation again? Me. So
Peter Mina (41:01.697)
Wow.
Lauren Anderson (41:02.924)
Wow. So they allowed the call and then punished you.
Donna Hughes-Brown (41:06.568)
Well they they didn’t know the company calls her I mean I was gonna let know that that’s what I just kinda snuck it in there, we didn’t tell you know, and so i y it’s just when you make noise and when you stand up for yourself and myself and two other women were basically the only ones that that would advocate and that’s because we were all
Peter Mina (41:13.526)
Mm.
Lauren Anderson (41:13.59)
Yeah, yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (41:34.877)
you know, Western European in the sense like I’m you know, I have Irish nationality. One of the other women was from England and I forget where the where the third woman was from, Canada, I think it was, or whatever it was. But the other women that are in there, their culture tends to require that they not drop the boat, that they accept whatever’s going on and therefore they kinda allowed me to
Lauren Anderson (41:36.642)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Mina (41:36.782)
Okay.
Peter Mina (41:43.214)
huh.
Lauren Anderson (41:59.693)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (42:04.79)
you know, to be the one that would open my mouth and get in trouble because that’s you know yeah. So
Peter Mina (42:09.398)
Right. You were the spokesperson, huh?
Lauren Anderson (42:11.51)
Right. So how did that change things for you, Donna? I mean, I you and I have talked before too, but you know, you really became, as you’re talking about, a very real advocate for the other women that were detained with you. And that’s informed what you and Jim have decided to do since. So can you talk a little bit about your advocacy briefly for while you were in there ’cause you just shared some of that, but also what you’re doing now and why you feel it’s so important.
Donna Hughes-Brown (42:41.736)
So our purpose is mine especially is to affect change. not only to be reactive to what is going on right now, but also to be proactive into ensuring that this does not continue. So reactively we have all of these detainees that are still being detained, they’re not being allowed due process, they’re not being allowed basic human rights.
Lauren Anderson (42:57.314)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (43:11.67)
and so we have made it our mission to make sure that these voices are heard, to make sure that
The government knows that we’re watching. We are not just going to sit idly by. and to make sure that when people look at situations, if you look at somebody that is labeled an immigrant, you look at somebody that’s labeled illegal, all right, they could have come into the country legally.
been in legal process of of getting their their paperwork and everything because you can come into the country and as long as you’ve declared that you’re there for asylum, then you’re allowed to be in this country. And they’re pulling people, you know, left, right, and center that have declared asylums, you know, requested asylum and they’re detaining them anyway during their asylum process. And that process can take anywhere from
two to twelve years becoming a green card holder, which I am. I’ve been in the US for almost fifty years now. And
you know, i just just because you’re legal doesn’t mean you’re safe. And so we are really going to bat for everybody, not just a set group of people. Okay? Because before we’re labeled anything by society, before we’re labeled a Christian or Muslim, an agnostic, a Christian, whatever, a a Republican, a Democrat, a furry, whatever it is that soci whatever label that society places on
Donna Hughes-Brown (45:06.47)
you before you are any of those things you are human first. Okay? And America seems to be forgetting that.
And so that is part of our our mission is to remind America that we are all human first. The American Eagle is, you know, is a symbol of freedom and America. And that eagle cannot f you know, it needs the left wing and the right wing to come together in order to be able to fly. And that’s what we’re trying to do is bring America back together again as a whole unit that accepts what she was founded on. And and does not do things like that.
Lauren Anderson (45:36.066)
Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (45:46.067)
like is happening. We are helping current detainees with their basic needs. I know C C D C there were certain things that C C D C did not provide and that you would have to purchase. And if you have to purchase it, if you have no money, you’re not purchasing things. And an at an astronom astronomical
Peter Mina (46:03.779)
Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (46:08.282)
Upgrade in price. You know, your your little VO5 shampoo that you can buy at the dollar store for 99 cents is, you know, like five or six dollars on the commissary. Okay, and things like that. So when we look at the situation as it is now, we are helping individuals that are detained currently. We’re having to be reactive to what’s currently going on, but we’re also proactive in trying to effect change with the laws and the regulations.
that currently stand and are constantly changing.
even now. And so looking to, you know, it’s great if we get these ten people out, but there’s gonna be ten more that are gonna take their place, because as long as this continues to happen, this is gonna be an issue. I’m working to try and connect with all of the law enforcement agencies, for instance in Missouri, that have signed the 287 G to find out why they why they’ve signed it, what their you know, what their purpose is, what they think they’re going to be doing, and to explain to
Lauren Anderson (46:55.649)
Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (47:13.408)
them that are you ready for the repercussions of this? You know, have you thought about this? I go to the town meetings and say, hey, is your town willing to have a lawsuit put against your police department because they erroneously held somebody for ice? You know, just just things like that. So we we’ve got our our fingers in a lot of lif little pies.
Lauren Anderson (47:20.098)
Mm.
Lauren Anderson (47:31.138)
Mm.
Peter Mina (47:32.13)
So Yeah.
Peter Mina (47:38.636)
So Donna, I had a a question, both of you. I mean, you guys have all been always been about action and service. And I wonder what you tell your friends, your neighbors, or what you would say to others across the country who would look at the immigration situation and say, you know, that’s never gonna affect me. Or look, you know, they broke the law. They came into this country, you know, unlawfully. Of course they should be deported. what do you say to people like that?
Donna Hughes-Brown (48:06.676)
Telling them the actual how it does affect them. Okay. If they are numbers people, then you give them the you know, if they’re concerned about their taxes and where their taxes are going, that’s the route I take. If they are proving to have
Lauren Anderson (48:18.434)
Mm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (48:26.782)
reasons that are political, you know, well well it’s gotta be right ’cause that’s the way it is. And you know, then I attack it from that that aspect of it.
Peter Mina (48:33.603)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (48:38.298)
If I find people that actually have a heart, I will, you know, attack it from that particular standpoint. It cost the United States taxpayer $27,000 to keep me detained for 143 days. That’s not even including the payment that was going to CCDC. They get paid $108 a day per detainee. So if you just do really simple math, if there’s a hundred detainees
Even at a hundred dollars a day, all right.
times thirty days, that’s three hundred over three hundred thousand dollars, all right, that they’re making for a hundred detainees. They have two hundred in there. They have over two hundred in there. So double that. Six hundred thousand dollars a month is what CCDC is is being paid by ICE and DHS to house detainees. And they’re a fairly small facility. They’re only a six hundred bed facility to begin with. So the other four hundred are inmates, okay? Or federal being held for federal charges.
Peter Mina (49:20.514)
Mm.
Right.
Peter Mina (49:35.992)
Right.
Lauren Anderson (49:36.299)
Right.
Peter Mina (49:38.869)
huh. Sure.
Donna Hughes-Brown (49:43.211)
So if you’re worried about where your tax dollars are going, that that’s real money. And that’s where it’s going. It held me for 143 days. $27,000 of your tax money held me. So that’s what I say. If people we’ve lost friends over this and my theory is, okay, you weren’t really a friend if you don’t at least understand common decency and be humane treatment of people.
Lauren Anderson (49:43.552)
Well.
Peter Mina (50:00.854)
huh.
Lauren Anderson (50:07.169)
Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (50:10.332)
And I don’t have time for you if that’s the case. You know, if you can’t ac accept those two things, regardless of where your affiliation is or what your thoughts are or anything else, if you can’t accept accept the fact that people are human first, then I yeah. You’re not worth my time. And see I attacked a dogma of the stereotype.
Lauren Anderson (50:26.625)
Well.
Donna Hughes-Brown (50:33.468)
of what’s going on because that’s absolutely not true. i and I also attack it from a Christian standpoint. You know, especially the Christians, I go after them because a lot of them are very right wing conservative, whatever and I say, Well who’d you vote for? Well and I voted for Trump. I’ll just tell you that right up. Because of the
Peter Mina (50:33.55)
huh.
Peter Mina (50:42.19)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Mina (50:57.742)
Okay.
Lauren Anderson (50:58.722)
Mm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (51:01.564)
right wing conservative Christian movement but I didn’t really see what they were doing. I didn’t honestly see that. And I go after the lies and the rhetoric that’s being disputed. I actually go with statistics. They talk about immigrants, they they talk about the immigrant crime, you know, we’re getting rid of all these criminals. Well, eighty four percent of the people that are being detained don’t have any crime. So
Lauren Anderson (51:17.538)
Mm-hmm.
Peter Mina (51:24.291)
Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (51:31.431)
that doesn’t sell. So I also go with the fact that five percent of the entire immigrant public population have any history of any problems at all once they come to America. The majority of the immigrant community are not criminals. And
Lauren Anderson (51:31.541)
Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (51:51.733)
I go with, you know, homicides, I’ll go with statistics because they can’t they can’t argue statistics. They can say, well, you know, and then they say where do where do you get your information? Well let’s get it from the Border Patrol statistics and the actual people that matter. Well, you know, let’s talk about homicides, you know, homicides, immigrant homicides versus American homicides. Well nineteen thousand homicides in America by US citizens
Lauren Anderson (52:00.675)
Mm.
Peter Mina (52:08.238)
huh.
Lauren Anderson (52:09.27)
Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (52:21.556)
Last year there was nine by immigrants. And we go, but I actually go from that angle because a lot of these people are so brainwashed, including myself, I was, into believing whatever is spewed by a conservative pastor.
or a conservative anybody, Fox News or whatever, you know, and they they start saying something about Fox News, I say, you do know they had a libel lawsuit against them for seven hundred and eighty two million dollars. We don’t talk about that because they were lying to the public. So I go with that angle from there too. And I also when I go in front of people I try to dress as redneck as possible. And there’s a
Lauren Anderson (53:00.428)
Mm-hmm.
Donna Hughes-Brown (53:13.238)
Reason behind that is because there’s not a lot of immigrant advocates that are from our area of the world. You know, this is red Missouri. The three counties around here are solid red. Okay, and
Peter Mina (53:20.878)
Sure.
Lauren Anderson (53:20.884)
Right. Right. And that’s
Donna Hughes-Brown (53:31.795)
they’re mostly country and they’re mostly rural people and they’re mostly solid red. So me going in my cowboy hat and my boots and saying, wait, you know, then they hear that, wait a minute, he’s actually an advocate for immigrants? Well, then I quote the thirty verses in the Bible that actually advocate for immigrants. And they say, wait a minute, you know, because they go from a Christian perspective. Well, you know, we have to follow the rule of law. Well there’s two
Peter Mina (53:52.664)
Mm.
Peter Mina (53:56.195)
Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (54:00.105)
verses in the Bible that talk about the rule of law. There’s thirty that talk about advocating for immigrants. So, you know, and then they go, Well, you know, they broke the law. I says, Well, yeah, but
Lauren Anderson (54:07.958)
Well yeah.
Donna Hughes-Brown (54:16.148)
adulteries against the law and there’s not one Republican that has not been in Congress that hasn’t been a a serial adulteress. So let’s go there if you’d like. You know, but we have to actually flip the coin and actually have facts to back it up. And that’s the thing that they you hear so much rhetoric and so much garbage and then you say, wait a minute, let’s actually talk about fact. Let’s actually talk about what the statistics actually say
Peter Mina (54:23.514)
Mm.
Lauren Anderson (54:27.148)
Well.
Donna Hughes-Brown (54:46.383)
You know, California, for example. California lost sixty percent of their farms last year because they lost their labor force. How is that helping the American economy?
Peter Mina (54:56.494)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Anderson (54:57.356)
Yeah. Well
Well it’s just like they announced that that the American economy is down one million jobs, part of which is attributable to this. So you’re right. And I you know, I am just so grateful. I know Peter will speak for himself for for you, Donna, and you, Jim, for being willing to share your story, be and the fact that you’ve become advocates instead of just being angry, you’ve decided to do something about it. And you know, as another
Donna Hughes-Brown (55:29.672)
Well, you can bitch all day long but you have to pick up a shovel if you’re gonna dig a hole.
Lauren Anderson (55:34.593)
Yep, you’re absolutely right. You are absolutely right. And thank you so much because as as a fellow resident in this country, I I am both sorry for what happened to you and very, very grateful for your willingness to take a horrific situation for you and your family personally and to go out there and be a strong voice. We need more people like you in this country, and and I am grateful to have met you and I’m
Peter Mina (55:35.16)
There you go. Well said.
Lauren Anderson (56:03.34)
Deeply grateful for you agreeing to take this time with Peter and I. Peter, any closing thoughts from you?
Peter Mina (56:08.642)
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I would again echo Lauren’s thanks and Donna, regardless of what this immigration system says or does, you are the definition of what it what it should mean to be an American. and I hope people understand that as we are in a moment where
Donna Hughes-Brown (56:25.096)
Yeah.
Peter Mina (56:30.196)
So as Lauren was alluding to, so few people or not enough people are willing to step out and actually act in response to what’s happening right now. And and I would, you know, pose the question to our audience, you know, does this make us safer? Does this make it more secure? I would argue it doesn’t. Mm-hmm. Right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (56:48.102)
Not even close. Not even close.
Lauren Anderson (56:51.474)
we are all in agreement with that. So thank you, Peter. Thanks, Donna, thanks Jim. we are so very grateful.
Donna Hughes-Brown (56:57.692)
We appreciate you guys. Thank you. And keep in contact because maybe we can get I mean, you guys’s ideas with the American Immigration Council and stuff is phenomenal and
Peter Mina (56:58.456)
Thank you both.
Donna Hughes-Brown (57:11.238)
I wanna use some of that because as I said, I want to actually change legislation. And some of the ideas and the bullet points in that white paper are something that we need to use to like like the statute of limitations. Why should somebody be tried for something they did twenty years ago? Retried that’s a misdemeanor. For a misdemeanor that happened twenty years ago. It’s just an excuse to
Lauren Anderson (57:32.768)
Right. Retry it. Yeah, you’re right.
Peter Mina (57:35.97)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Anderson (57:37.506)
You’re right.
Donna Hughes-Brown (57:39.985)
generate money and to make your a bragging point that we’re getting rid of all these terrible criminals. Which is absolutely not true.
Peter Mina (57:46.562)
Yeah, and I think Right and I I guess what I would just say really quickly is that, you know, look, this could immigration could not be one of the more complex in terms of all of the policy solutions. I think, you know, as an organization, we’re also really trying to highlight how what’s happening in our immigration system is, you know, is in fact a real threat to national security and is sort of part of a broader, you know, concern about authoritarianism.
And so, you know, this is the kind of debate the debate that should be happening in this country, regardless of where you are in the spectrum as it relates to immigration or any other policy. Again, that’s what being American is all about. but right now we’re in a in an environment where our immigration system is being used as a bludgeon to get at, you know, to you know, essentially push out people that either don’t look or don’t think like.
supporters of the current administration.
Lauren Anderson (58:48.172)
Right, which is deeply regrettable. So thank you again. thanks to all of our listeners for being here with us today. This is actually part one of a two-part series that we’re doing, that we’re calling our immigration arc. And we will have the next one coming up as well. So thanks to everyone for following. This is Lauren Anderson again for the Steady State Sentinel. Please let us know what you think. Please let us give us feedback.
And share what you’re hearing with those that you know because we wanna engage with you. We wanna talk with you, we wanna know what you’re thinking. And thanks so much again to Jim and Donna Brown and and Peter. Thanks for being here alongside of me. And this is Lauren Anderson for the Steady State Sentinel, still standing watch.
Peter Mina (59:31.574)
Of course.
Donna Hughes-Brown (59:35.733)
Thank you. Thank you.